Digging into the meat of manhood.
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If I've understood Neil Strauss at all,
most guys think they're trying to impress women when in fact they're, subconsciously, just trying to impress other guys.
Eating meat IS just another a male posturing strategy.
The bullies are going to pick on me anyway, I may as well do the right thing and live with something like a clear conscience.
I'd like some one to explain how I'm wrong.
There is nothing more "manly" than being vegan! Isn't manliness associated with strength, willpower and stamina? Well guess what, being vegan requires a shitload of that. I find being vegan extremely difficult, you have to deal with so much shit. From people who tease you, from shit with unnecessary milkpowder... It's a bitch, but it's worth it. Plus, you feel good about yourself. You know that you are actually doing something for the environment and for your health. Something most people couldn't do because they lack the characteristics mentioned above.
A somewhat related issue. In Japan, men who are considered not assertive/masculine enough when it comes to women, (romancing them, having sex with them, etc) are called herbavoirs. This is not a direct comment on veganism AFAIK. I think most japanese are largely unfamiliar with the diet. But it would be interesting if learning a man was a literal herbivore AKA vegan, whether they would associate that person with their metaphorical masculinity questioning herbivore label
Meat is associated with strength, stamina, and aggressivity, traits culturally associated to males... while being caring and compassionate, be it for people, animals or the environment in general, is traditionally a "feminine" quality. No wonder vegetarism/veganism is seen as feminine, and since everything feminine is considered degrading and inferior...
Being manly is apparently a matter of dominating, owning and consuming flesh, be it animal flesh for the pleasure of one's tastebuds, or human flesh (mostly female) for sexual entertainment.
Are the statistics similar for vegetarian men? I feel like there's more stereotypes surrounding vegan diets than vegetarian ones. Also, there are plenty of men who eat less meat or are more sustainable-conscious; choosing poultry or fish over beef or other large animal products, or eating meat less often. Maybe because they don't necessarily present as "meat free" consistently, they aren't called out on it? I'm a female and I tend to choose sustainable options while still eating meat on occasion.
I'm a meat eater. I respect a persons' decision live life as a Vegan. However, my sister is a Vegan. And, with all due respect, since becoming one she has become totally obnoxious as a person. She has also gained a snotty attitude in which she seems to look down at the rest of us for eating meat. Its almost as if she thinks that she is better than us. I applaud her efforts in becoming a 100 per cent Vegan in which she even refuses to wear certain clothing (ie, leathers, etc), but why the appalling attitude? What makes me laugh is that she smokes cigarettes like a trooper and has a horrifying smoker's cough. I quit tobacco some years ago and nowadays smelling the toxic cigarette fumes around my sister makes me wanna hurl. But, I won't preach to her about this detrimental decision to continue smoking. It's her life. She knows the score. So, if she has the will power to change her life around and live as a Vegan why won't she quit the cigs? I find it all hypocritical. Apologies if I sound preachy. Just wanted to get all this off my chest. Why do Vegans become so obnoxious?
i love tofu, my aunt had a health food store when I was very young, and a spent a lot of time there. but when i was growing up my mother often over cooked meat. so my love of meat was later, and is currently overwhelming. how do I overcome it, because animals are amazing. i love them. dopey cows, dumb sheep, and super smart lovable bacon/pigs? help me.
I'm a vegan guy. It's very liberating when you stop living according to the reactions of others no matter what your lifestyle choice is. I realized long ago that I have absolutely nothing to prove to anyone.
Was never a vegan, but was vegetarian for most of my life and heard a lot of the same stuff. The thing I always found funny was how people didn't get the difference between not eating meat and being preachy. Everybody shits on vegetarians for being overly promotional and judgmental, but some really couldn't care less what you did. I was one of those. People would try to bother me by saying things like "ooooooh, this meat is SO good! Yum. Oh this steak is SOOO delicious!". I'd just kind of look them and roll my eyes. Didn't care what they ate, they're just being annoying. It's like when someone makes a joke about your name. They think they're so damn original but you've heard it a million times.
You also get a lot of really repetitive interviews when people find out. "Where do you eat? Do you eat burgers? Do you eat hot dogs? Do you eat pizza?". Oh yeah, then there's the part when they try to bust you on apparently doing it wrong. "Do you eat cake? Yes? Then you're not a vegetarian!". You're thinking of vegan, dumbass. It always makes the center of conversations about food, but not because I made it that way, because THEY did. I wanted to look at these people and be like "seriously? My life doesn't revolve around the food I eat! I shoot pool, like music, like to write, go to college...I've got more things to talk about you know!".
My friends/roommates also told me that for some reason they hate veganism in general. And they used to order me to eat meat - they eat meat themselves so much. Like almost everyday there is at least as much meat as there is grains on the table. They've learned to accept it very quickly though, after a few weeks. (I've been vegan for at least a month now and I love how healthy I'm eating now.) Glad I live in the Netherlands, and glad that both me and my girlfriend are good positive associations they can make with being vegan.
We're both vegetarians with my boyfriend. When I told my male friends that I finally found a man who is vegetarian and likes to cook (I'm not amazing in the kitchen), their initial reaction was: "Didn't take you long to cut his balls off." *sigh*
I'm still wondering who in the world came up with associating different colors with different genders, but food? Really? I'm not a vegan myself, I also make vegan jokes, just like my friends make jokes about my habits and choices, but it never goes as far as actually hurting someone - but saying that specific foods are "more masculine, more manly" than others.. like.. what?
I wonder if this mostly applies to young men though. My dad, who just turned 60, switched to a mostly vegan diet last year to try and improve his health and take less diabetes medication. When we go to restaurants he orders either the vegan or vegetarian options without any objections and if there's a family get together he'll bring his own food so as not to put anyone out. Whenever people ask about his diet it's more out of curiosity than to tease him. No one questions his masculinity nor does he worry about it, so I wonder if masculinity is a young mans game.
Pft, what does meat eating have to do with manliness? In fact, I've heard that eating Red/Purple Cabbage 'ups' your masculinity, and its a vegetable. Im not vegan myself, I love meat way too much and sorry but I dont feel way too bad for eating meat anyways, I see it as a food chain thing. But regardless, Im bisexual, so I dont think eating meat has anything to do with your sexual orientation. (Albeit, orientation and manliness are completely unrelated, but that gay comment kind of annoyed me)
I don't think a person's masculinity or femininity should come into play when discussing diet choices, but voluntary vegans should definitely be ridiculed. Veganism is one of the worst things you can do to your body, and over time any vegetarian diet will destroy your brain.
This is just the tip of the research saying so...
Also, vegans and vegetarians are responsible for far more animal deaths than meat eaters, so the morality argument is out, too.
My boyfriend used to be vegan and he used to always pressure and nag at me to become vegan too even though I had already tried it a few years prior and no matter how careful I was I always ended up sick! There is a huge difference between being a normal vegan and a pushy mean fanatical vegan..... I still never made any jokes about his masculinity though! I think omnivores need to stop making immature jokes about vegans and ALSO vegans need to stop calling omnivores "carnists" and trying to harass them into becoming vegan. You can catch more flies with honey! ... or like agave nectar I guess!
I looked for cross cultural studies on vegetarianism and gender, but could not find any. All the data I can find has more women as vegetarians then women, regardless of culture. It is always bad to assume that cause of something is a sexist culture if you have not accounted for cross cultural studies. Men are not stronger, taller and more aggressive then women because of a sexist culture, they are those things in all cultural because of biology. Men have likely always consumed more meat that women in all cultures through out the world because of the difference in muscle mass of men and women, the average healthy men has about 40% more muscle mass then the average women, which means men need more protein. Historically, the main source of protein for human's was meat and men who did not get enough meat, which meant a lack of protein, would lack muscle mass, which would mean they did not look masculine.
This is not to say this is true for vegans or vegetarians today as there is no lack of vegetarian sources of protein. It is just the more likely historic reason for the "eating meat = masculine" and "vegetarian = feminine".
what insanity is this? 1] none of your business WHAT i want to eat
2] if "anyone" gets a comment about their food choice that person should immediately face down the accuser! see reason 1 !!
if "your friends" treat you in a manner that continually makes you uncomfortable, you need reevaluate the meaning of "friends"; what utter nonsense! [NO pun intended!]
I have an anthropology professor who is vegetarian and he was told when he went to Kalymnos, Greece that he would be doubted in his masculinity. However, he found the men there actually admired his "restraint" because they related it back to the Orthodox tradition of fasting, and so he represented a particular kind of masculinity.
My dad was a Lawyer and a vegetarian and my mom eats meat and she never had a problem with him being a vegetarian and my dad wouldn't give 2 💩 about what other people say about his life style.
He did eat some dairy and he liked to jog and he was a very healthy man before he passed away.
I don't have anything against people who are vegetarian or vegan or someone who is a meat eater it's their lifestyle and if they choose to be a vegan or a meat eater that way then they choose to be a vegan or a meat eater you know you can't judge them on what they eat and it has nothing to do being manly or gay.
I am a omnivore not a meat eater and I say this cause I think it sounds silly to call someone a meat eater or for someone to call them self's a meat eater because humans don't only eat meat I mean we are not like lions.
Come to think of it, I don't remember the last time I mentioned my pescetarianism to a layman. Aside from a Hare Krishna I met this week, I don't really remember for years mentioning it to any man at all. I wonder how this has to do with my sense of how evolved male and female cultures are. I also tend to communicate more with women as in my perception, we're more likely to have common interests. Women are more likely to be religious or spiritual as they feel more connected to Life and that's something important to me. As for other interests, idk. Maybe they're just better conversationalists and I don't miss the better male storytelling (yes, there are studies on this too) because I hear it from me ALL the time.
I am quite a big build guy with a big beard, so i probably look quite manly? .... I am a veggie who avoids dairy and eggs. I found no one seems to care, my close female friends joke a bit about it, sending me messages with dairy food they eating and hash tagging #suckstobevegan but it really doesn't bother me, its a bit of a silly joke.... a few male co workers have tried digging at me, but i really dont care and so dont give them anything to respond too, if they go on a bit i will just sprout some facts and they soon get bored. Female co workers who comment have seemed generally interested in my diet and ask questions about what i eat. I do live in the UK and from what i have heard from my veggie/vegan friends who have traveled is the UK and the EU is more tolerant of veggies than most other countries they been too.
I guess i dont really care about proving my masculinity to any one, if i was to label my self it would be a "Gamma" male, a more lone wolf, i do my own thing. It might be why i feel more comfortable in the company of women than men
In my opinion, people can eat whatever the hell they want. The only problem is how many Vegans I've met preach and preach and preach, trying to guilt-trip anyone who isn't Vegan into adopting the lifestyle. It is especially infuriating for me, because my Anaemia means it's impossible for me to not eat a balanced diet, including meat. Trust me, I know. I was Vegetarian for many years, where I just got more sickly by the day.
thank you so much for making this video! im not vegan myself but ive been vegetarian since i was about 9 (im 20 now) and my boyfriend has been slowly edging towards cutting out meat too. (his own decision! i never tell him what to eat!)
and even though our group of friends rarely question my eating habits, aside from a few jokes here and there, the minute it came up in conversation that he wanted to eat less meat certain people in the group were so shocked and weirded out that they made fun of him so much we almost had a huge falling out.
it was interesting to see the different ways they make fun of it, even though for him it was just a phase and he's not a veggii.
plus to what you said about how people react to telling them youre vegan/vegetarian: people always always always seem really personally offended. is it just me? its as if youve called them a murderer just by not eating meat.. thats how it was for me growing up anyway. i tip-toe around it and only tell people if i have too
The saying I always hear is "the way to a mans heart is through his stomach; unless he's a vegan, then you get to his heart through his vagina"
It's not even just male vegans that get picked on. My male vegetarian friends get slack for not eating meat, and even men that eat meat but just not steak.
People have too much time to care about what other people do. What do others eat, what do others wear, with whom do others sleep.. Is it because meeting different ways make us question ourselves? In particular diet, which is such a basic thing, I find it ridiculous to even have the food debate.. Do vegan believe they are better than meat eaters? Even if that were the case, so what. I don't go around bashing athletes for doing things I don't do, or bashing entrepreneurs for working harder than me. Some people need to accept the reality, eating meat is a confortable choice and we do it for pleasure and we don't change because we are lazy. Why get so defensive about if? Teasing vegans (or even agressing them) -- to me it's like passionatelly caring about the fact that someone eats vanilla ice cream, "don't they know that chocolate is the best flavor? why are they stupid by taking only vanilla? who do they think they are by judging me if I take chocolate (most of the time they have not even said a word other than "I'll take vanilla" but we assume we're being attacked for some reason). We need chocolate for our brain blah blah blah". Same thing. No one forces us to change whatsoever, people should just calm the F down and let people live their lives. I believe that veganism is a more ethical way of living yes, I don't need anyone to convince me and equally I don't think any vegan will start eating animal products because you tell them, even less because you insult them. Some vegans that do want to "spread the word" need to find effective ways of doing so, making your interlocutor feel guilty or inferior is probably not effective. And some omnivores need to stop taking everything personal and be so emotional about it, either be a rational adult or don't enter the subject at all. Respect above all people.
So I'm vegan, I'm also Australian.
Yesterday was Australia day, some would say it's the biggest "meat eating" day of the year for us, so it's kinda ironic that you made this video today and the fact that I didn't teased at all yesterday to my surprise :)
Needs an advertising campaign. Maybe a video of a bunch of foul mouth bullies insulting a dude eating a salad, and the dude turns green, grows monster muscles, becomes The Incredible Hulk and tosses them around like celery stalks.
There are female specific ones too. "You're just trying to lose weight" and "Veganism is an eating disorder" I've noticed that people seem to love bashing any dietary restrictions and (gluten free would be another example) and having them is seen as the ultimate offense. religious ones seem to be the only ones that might be tolerated.
Vegan guy, here. A lot of men do think that being vegan makes us ''gay", "pussies'', "overly-sensitive'' etc. The way I see it is that , if they're willing to make these assumptions about us, they're probably not very open-minded people to begin with. I normally don't associate with those kind of people. Especially the macho jerks. I've always hated that crowd.
I'm also straight-edge. I get lots of weird reactions from that, too. "You don't drink? Like, ever? Geez...what do you do for fun?" -_-
Btw, I love your videos.
"My meat-eating family members are all having health issues caused by their eating habits."
That sounds a bit extreme.
You could just not copy their bad eating habits. A bit like quitting exercise because you've seen people in your family overtrain.
Good that it works for you tough. Hope you're happy about your decision.
Anthropomorphism is extremely rare, even in vegans. People just falsely ascribe qualities that have been scientifically proven to exist in all mammals to only humans. That doesn't mean it's wrong to kill them necessarily, but to pretend animals don't have feelings is just willful ignorance. That said, I'm a vegan who didn't go vegan for animals. I'd try hunting, and I've killed animals before. I won't risk my health for bacon though. My meat-eating family members are all having health issues caused by their eating habits. Once my grandfather had a quintuple bypass I was done with animal products. Look up that procedure, it's gruesome. I guess since we're animals, that could count. But I'm the animal I'm saving when I refuse to eat meat lol.
-A lot of men do think that being vegan makes us ''gay", "pussies'', "overly-sensitive'' etc.-
I think it's not so much the veganism... as it is the fundamental disagreement about animal rights that leads to veganism (and a dose of anthropomorphism on behalf of many vegans and vegetarians)
I've yet to meet a vegan who didn't do it for the animals in one way or another.
Obviously the culture of hyper masculinity is silly, but even by their standards it doesn't make sense. Having a vegan diet is HARDER than having a meat diet. You need a lot of will power to stick to a vegan diet. How does that make you weak?
I think it has something to do with the old hominids being hunters and stuff, then our society expects men to keep on being brave, manly hunters... Which is funny, because almost no man nowadays hunts his own food; they buy their meat at the butcher shop, just like vegetarians buy their vegetables at the grocery store. It may have more to do with the nutrients, but that's a more complicated task, and even nutritionist don't seem to get on terms about that.
Why do people care so much about what you eat? As long as you're not grinding up humans in a blender it shouldn't even be that noteworthy. As a vegetarian, I am forced to basically lie about it because of the ridicule that I would face from most of my family members and boyfriend. I always have to say that my body cannot process meat very well and that I get sick.
Which to be honest, isn't that far from the truth because I do have digestion issues and am semi lactose intolerant.
+dave freier Actually humans in general were terrible hunters. Before tools, we had to scavenge off the remains of leftover prey from other predators. The fact that we eventually needed tools at all suggests that we're not designed to hunt period. But I agree with you that the culture of hunting (regardless of what weapons we've developed overtime) is entrenched in society to represent the best at survival of the fittest, aka the best mate and pack leader.
- I'm sure that had a lot to do with why people feel they "have" to eat meat, but I really think the cultural bias toward men in particular eating meat goes back further. Of course, this is speculation on my part.
People don't 'discover' their dietary 'choices', most vegans have the need to tell it to everyone and as soon as they meet someone, like, even before their names 'Hello, I'm vegan,I'm better than you and know everything about nutrition and how you should live your life, nice to meat you' :)
Laugh all you want. Vegan men have lower cholesterol and blood pressure. This means that they tend to be "manlier" since they have better sexual function because of cleaner arteries. ED is caused by clogged arteries, folks!
Just to be sure, a Vegan is someone who doesn't eat or drink any animal-based substances, while a Vegetarian 'only' does not eat meat, right?
I'd just want to make sure my English vocabulary is up-to-date in this regard...
+maglorian A vegan is someone who strives to eliminate their use of animal products of any kind, as far as practicable and possible. Vegetarians are more diverse. They don't eat meat. Some wear animal products such as leather, some don't. Most eat dairy, eggs, honey and other products that are processed with animal products, such as refined sugar.
As a vegan guy, this topic is kind of silly to me. While I do know what it's like first hand to be treated poorly for being vegan (especially from coworkers and at restaurants), I don't understand why being made fun of is such a "struggle" among friends. If you're a vegan guy and your friends are harassing you, then it's time to get new friends. If you continue to be friends with them, then you don't really have a right to complain about it.
On the other side of this, being a women who consumes a lot of meat, even raw at times, I am told that these are man foods. I find it strange that meals like a bloody steak or a spicy sausage have a gender attached to them. Can I just be a person and eat food that I like?
It disgusts me when people say that! Like, I know it's not their fault because they don't understand, but it is just a stab to my heart every time (because I feel sad for the animals). I would rather not hear about it!
I used to have a server in my college canteen who would ask me EVERY DAY was I SURE I didn't want meat in my sandwich. Every single time without fail. She would then proceed to pull faces and roll her eyes after I confirmed my vegetarian order. I eventually stopped ordering from the canteen just to save myself the hassle.
+SilverDemon False. Everything in your digestive tract is passed in two or three days unless you have a medical condition. Do you really think your colon has the power to hold on to certain things and pass other things through? It all goes through at the same speed. That's how peristalsis works. Ask a doctor.
This video is so real. But there's another side that wasn't mentioned - how _women_ sometimes react negatively to vegan men. The perceived loss of masculinity can also turn off women who for whatever reason think "a real man eats meat."
Fortunately strong adherence to outdated gender norms is a turn off for _me,_ so it's win win.
Eating meat can make you manly and vegetables will not? Am going to prove all of them wrong!!! Been vegan since birth and still as healthy as ever! Now And who says we need meat to survive... its all bs :p
I'm vegan, and although I'm a woman, any time I'm forced to come out as vegan (e.g., at a restaurant) there's inevitably at least one person--usually a man--who tells me about how they couldn't possibly be vegetarian because the "estrogen" in soy. I usually just smile and nod instead of letting them know that you can be a soy-free vegetarian if it worries you that much (or that meat and dairy have huge amounts of actual estrogen). I think the phytoestrogen thing is just another talking point people use in our culture to feminize and therefore belittle and dismiss vegetarianism.